Reefer4life

iTrader: (1)

Don't know if any of you recall the disastrous stupidity on my behalf that totally devastated my FOWLR back in January,2008.

It all began with a small outbreak of ich which I decided to attack asap. Called my local lfs for ich med. that a member had told me about, but no one had it. So I expanded my search a little further, nothing. But while on the phone with one of the lfs I was told of a med that the person used all the time for over 20 years in tanks with lr with no ill effect on the biological filtration. I drive out to pick it up, it is "CopperSafe". I say to the guy, this is impossible, it is a copper med. You cannot use copper base meds, and not kill of the biological filtration. He insist that he has been using the same med in his fowlr with no ill effects.
So, STUPID me decides that if it worked for him why wouldn't it work for me. So I buy the only bottle he had left (a gallon). Get home do a water change, clean off all the lr in fresh pre made ro/di w/salt, temp, and ph all in concordance to the par in the fowlr. Put the tank back together add the recommend dose of the Copper Safe 1/4 cup for 120 gallon tank.
Watched in horror as my Majestic kield over, followed by my cow fish the next morn, bluethroat trigger that afternoon. And the other fish looking absolutely miserable.
I immediately called CopperSafe manufactures, and left an urgent mess. A young woman called me back that afternoon. She told me that I had been lied to, CopperSafe does not claim to be safe for inverts, or biological filtration. And further more definitely not safe to use with Angelfish, eels. She stated that I had used the correct amount of the med., but NOT to add any more. And to start doing weekly water changes to rid the tank of the med, and to add a product that removes copper (don't really remember the name, think it was CopperRid). Did as directed, and I called the person at the lfs who to this day insists that CopperSafe is safe to use with live rock.

Now here is my dilema!! It has been 4 months, and I have not been able to get this tank back to what it was.
I had been doing weekly 20% water changes, running activitated carbon. Which I then switched to bi-weekly thinking less water changes would give the bio time to re-establish. I also added Biozyme, and still the tank has a cloudy appearance on occasions. It did clear up briefly about a month ago, but it is back to being cloudy.
I have even scaled back my feeding of frozen foods to every other day. All in the hopes of fixing this.
And the WORSE part is that my tangs which were fine for the two years that I had them now have HLLE. My Desjardini Sailfin being the worse one off. Although the Dog Face Puffer, Eel, GS Maroone Clown are fine. Dog Face has even grown quite a bit.

I'll pick up some cycle. Feeding frozen foods (Formula 1 & 2, Mysis{on occasion Rod's Food}), prawns, silver sides soaked in Selcon, Vitachem & Garlic Extreme every other day. With Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef flakes, and Omega One Super Veggies on the other days.
PARA:
Temp. 79 - 80 (81 right now @ 3PM)
SG 1.20
PH 8.3
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates -20


This is the Biozyme that I am using.


Saltwater Biozyme

Biozyme is a living system of beneficial bacteria in concentrated form, which is activated upon introduction to water to convert lethal ammonia and nitrite to less harmful nitrate. It quickly reduces fish wastes to inert substances and breaks down organic buildup in gravel beds.
It has an unlimited shelf life, as opposed to liquid enzymes. These bacteria contribute to the production of the nitrogen cycle, which is critical to all aquatic systems. This material gives you the option of increasing the activity of an already established filter, or reactivating a filter damaged by medications. Helps prevent "new tank syndrome" when used for establishing new aquariums.


Other then the water changes & cycle what else would you guys do?
I also have lr rubble in the sump, and a Berlin in sump skimmer that I can't seem to get it working properly. I'm thinking I should remove the lr rubble.

So what else can I do?

bschuerman

iTrader: (0)

Have you tried a copper test kit lately? Is there a possibility some copper still remains? I don't know how you could fix the LR issues but buying a new tank might be feasable and sell your current one to a freshwater enthusiast... I am not sure if you keep throwing money at it if it will pay off... easier said then done but I would almost look into a new setup and slowly move things over and see if things stabilize a little bit at a time.

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55 Gallon Reef Tank
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Reefer4life

iTrader: (1)

bschurman, before I go out, and buy a new tank I'd get rid of the fish in it, and just be done with it.

There is no copper left that is detectable by any copper test kits. Yes I checked!! First is that only 1 dose was put into the tank, therefor there was never much of any in it to begin with. And the tangs should not be affected by such a small amount of copper any way.
So the fact that the copper is non detectable, tells me it is not the copper that is causing the problem now.
I believe it is just the fact that all of the biological filtration was killed with the initial dose of the copper, and what I don't understand is:

Why is it taking so long for this tank to cycle? Why am I getting readings of 20ppm of nitrates?ARG It has been 4 months already.

psychographic

iTrader: (2)

Judging by your timeframe along with the Ammo, Trite and Trate readings, it seems your tank is cycled. Adding "Cycle" to it won't hurt though. The Biozyme is useless IMO. Many will tell you "Cycle" is snake oil, I have used it on a few occasions and think it DOE'S work. It might be coincidence and that my bacteria colonies where at the brink of being in the numbers needed to handle the bioload, but the reason I do think it works, it is just TOO much of a coincidence that it worked EVERY time. I have always OD'd the tank when using it also.

To be honest, I think you are trying to hard. Leave the tank alone other than your regularly scheduled WC's. Mother Nature is an expert at these things, we are not, by you fiddling with it only disturbs things and as you know the more stable the tank, the better. Let Mom do her work.

Another thing to note, carbon is a great medium for growing bacteria due to the vast amount of surface area, by you changing it so often, you could be throwing away a lot of beneficial bacteria. I'm not saying this is the problem, but it won't hurt to leave it alone for a month or so.

Also (this is just going to KILL you!), cut back on your feeding to once or twice a week. The only exception to this is, if one of your fish is particularly aggresive and starts attacking any of the others looking for something to eat.

I have used Coppersafe with large angels back in the early eighties with no ill effects. Copper, IIRC, is not safe for scaleless fish such as your Cowfish and Eels. I also did not have a problem losing all of my bacteria although I'm sure it put a hurting on them. To properly dose copper, you need to monitor it a few time each day that you are using it to keep the levels in check. Also it is a good idea to cram as much oxygen into the water column as possible during a copper treatment. This is usually accomplished with airstiones, the wooden ones work the best for this.

Stock up on Poly Filters, they do wonders at removing copper. It's been a while, but I think they turn blue as they remove copper, the packaging will tell you what color is what as far as removing things. Once one turns blue, add another one and remove the colored one a week after adding the new one until they stop showing signs of removal. Don't worry about using one for too long, they don't release the copper back into the water. Continue to use them and replace them monthly for about 6 months after there are no signs of the copper in them.

gonzapa

iTrader: (0)

I would stop adding anything else but food and water changes to the tank Something that will probably help is adding some Fully cured LR from someone else tank or adding water from other tanks into the FOWL

Deepwater

iTrader: (7)

Not sure if copper test kits are made to test that low. arent they made to test for fish only tanks where you have a level of copper that are greater then say ppb )part per billion)

even the smallest amount of copper can effect crustaceans , snails or critters living in our live rock.

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psychographic

iTrader: (2)

rbtwo4

iTrader: (3)

I remember when I said I feed my fish twice a week Awi almost killed me.
Anyway it COULD be microorganisms suspended in your water column. If your water contains enough nutrients these microorganisms can grow out of control to an extent that it will make ur water "look cloudy" there can be millions in ur water column. Decaying food provides the dissolved nutrients to feed the microbastards lol. So basically u have to cut down on feeding as much as u may not want to.
Another cause could be a chemical reaction. Being that ur adding all kinds of things. I'd just stop adding stuff to the tank. To see if this is the issue.
Tiny bubbles can be it to. I mean REALLY tiny bubbles. U may have a leak in a tube allowing some air into it. Bubbles really low in buoyancy can float and not rise to the top. So u might want to shut everything off for maybe an hr or 2 to see if that's the case.

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Reefer4life

iTrader: (1)

Not adding anything other then the Biozyme. Except that someone else other then Dave here had suggested that I add Cycle instead of Biozyme.
Only added 1dose of the copper treatment, and did not add any consequent doses due to the loss of the fish mentioned above.;( Therefor there was no need to continously measure the copper in the tank.

Did add a bag of CopperRid, and Polyfilter Pad. Yes Dave, they turn blue/green. More like mint to me.lol
I don't normally change out the carbon that often, again it was suggested that I change it out weekly by the same person that suggested the Cycle, and twice a week w/c. This did not sound like the greatest advice to me which is why I brought this dilema to you guys.

Ro, that is what I am thinking that all the critters in the lr died.

I hate not feeding my fish when I think of that if they were in their natural home they'd have food available to them 24/7.
That is why I do weekly w/c usually 15g out of 120 to keep up with the feedings. Oh and they only get just enough for them to finish up in less then 5 min.

The reef on the other hand gets a ton of food daily. That tank is doing fine now that I am back to feeding, and weekly w/c.

I'm going to have to go to Bklyn, or Flushing to find Nori. The asian fruit stands out by me don't carry it. So I buy the freeze dried seaweed they sell in the lfs.

psychographic

iTrader: (2)

Almost any large Supermarket caries Nori these days, it's way cheaper than buying from an LFS. Do you have Shop Rites by you? I know th ones I have been to carry it.

Reefer4life

iTrader: (1)

Will search for a Shop Rite. We only have Waldbaum, Stop&Shop, Key Food, Associated. I normally shop at the S&S, and I have not seen it there. I'll try a trip to the Waldbaum.

Deepwater

iTrader: (7)

next you are by me ill give you some nori , I usally buy it in bulk its cheaper !

__________________
There are 3 ways of seeing things ~ 1st with the left eye , 2nd with the right eye and last with both eyes ~

Reefer4life

iTrader: (1)

Thank you Ro!!ake
Heck, how about the next time you buy the bulk we go half&half?

Deepwater

iTrader: (7)

not to worry , i have enuff to last me for 4 to 6 months , i only have 2 yellow tang

so you can come buy and get your tangs started or you can do what dave said and get some from the market either way , lmk

__________________
There are 3 ways of seeing things ~ 1st with the left eye , 2nd with the right eye and last with both eyes ~

Reefer4life

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Ro! Will let you know as soon as I check the waldbaums in Hewlit & Rockaway Beach..